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$Unique_ID{USH01568} $Pretitle{132} $Title{The Nixon Tapes September 15, 1972. (5:27pm - 6:17pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Nixon, Richard M.} $Affiliation{Senate Judiciary Committee} $Subject{john dean nixon pres haldeman hr get now right committee} $Volume{} $Date{1974} $Log{} Book: The Nixon Tapes Author: Nixon, Richard M. Affiliation: Senate Judiciary Committee Date: 1974 September 15, 1972. (5:27pm - 6:17pm) Meeting: President Nixon, HR Haldeman and John Dean, Oval Office -------------------------- This opens just as Dean comes in the door -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Hi, how are you? You had quite a day today didn't you. You got Watergate on the way didn't you? John Dean: We tried. HR Haldeman: How did it all end up? John Dean: Ah, I think we can say well at this point. The press is playing it just as we expect. HR Haldeman: Whitewash? John Dean: No, not yet - the story right now - Pres. Nixon: It is a big story HR Haldeman: Five indicted plus the WH former guy and all that. John Dean: Plus two White House fellows HR Haldeman: That is good that takes the edge off whitewash really that was the thing Mitchell kept saying that to people in the country Liddy and Hunt were big men. Maybe that is good. Pres. Nixon: How did MacGregor handle himself? John Dean: I think very well he had a good statement which said that the Grand Jury had met and that it was now time to realize that some apologies may be due. HR Haldeman: Fat chance. John Dean: Get the damn (inaudible) J. Haldeman: We can't do that. Pres. Nixon: Just remember, all the trouble we're taking, we'll have a chance to get back one day. How are you doing on your other investigations? HR Haldeman: What has happened on the bug? Pres. Nixon: What bug? John Dean: The second bug there was a bug found in the telephone of one of the men at the DNC. Pres. Nixon: You don't think it was left over from the other time? John Dean: Absolutely not, the Bureau has checked and rechecked the whole place after that night. The man had specifically checked and rechecked the telephone and it was not there. Pres. Nixon: What the hell do you think was involved? John Dean: I think DNC was planted. Pres. Nixon: You think they did it? John Dean: Uh huh Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) do they really want to believe that we planted that? HR Haldeman: Did they get anything on the finger prints? John Dean: No, nothing at all - either on the telephone or on the bug. The FBI has unleashed a full investigation over at the DNC starting with O'Brien right now. HR Haldeman: Laughter. Using the same crew - John Dean: The same crew - the Washington Field Office. Pres. Nixon: What kind of questions are they asking him? John Dean: Anything they can think of because O'Brien is charging them with failing to find all the bugs. HR Haldeman: Good, that will make them mad. John Dean: So Gray is pissed and his people are pissed off. So maybe they will move in because their reputation is on the line. I think that is a good development. Pres. Nixon: I think that is a good development because it makes it look so (adjective deleted) funny. Am I wrong? John Dean: No, no sir. It looks silly. If we can find that the DNC planted that, the whole story will reverse. Pres. Nixon: But how could they possibly find it, though? John Dean: Well, they are trying to ascertain who made the bug. It is a custom made product. If they can get back to the man who manufactured it and who he sold it to and how it came down through the chain. Pres. Nixon: Boy, you never know when those guys get after it - they can really find it. John Dean: The resources that have been put against this whole investigation to date are really incredible. It is truly a larger investigation than was conducted against the after inquiry of the JFK assassination. Pres. Nixon: Oh. John Dean: Good statistics supporting the finding. HR Haldeman: Isn't that ridiculous - this silly thing. Pres. Nixon: Yes (Expletive deleted). Goldwater put it in context when he said "(expletive deleted) everybody bugs everybody else. You know that." John Dean: That was priceless. Pres. Nixon: It happens to be totally true. We were bugged in '68 on the plane and in '62 even running for Governor (expletive deleted) thing you ever saw. John Dean: It is a shame that evidence to the fact that that happened in '68 was never around. I understand that only the former Director had that information. HR Haldeman: No, that is not true. John Dean: There was evidence of it? J. Haldeman: There are others who have information. Pres. Nixon: How do you know? Does DeLoache know? John Dean: DeLoache? HR Haldeman: I have some stuff too - on the bombing incident and too in the bombing halt stay. Pres. Nixon: The difficulty with using it, of course, is it reflects on Johnson. If it weren't for that, I would use it. Is there any way we could use it without using his name - saying that the DNC did it? No - the FBI did the bugging. John Dean: That is the problem - would it reflect on Johnson or Humphrey? HR Haldeman: Johnson. Humphrey didn't do it. Pres. Nixon: Oh, hell no. J. Haldeman: He was bugging Humphrey, too. Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) Pres. Nixon: Well, on the other hand I want you to ask Connally. What crazy things we do. That this might help with the bombing. I don't think he will talk to Johnson - and also it would reflect on the Bureau. They hate to admit that. HR Haldeman: It is a rough one on them with all this stuff that they don't do Congressmen, etc. Pres. Nixon: It isn't worth it - the hell with it. What is the situation on the little red box? Have they found the box yet? John Dean: Gray has never had access to the box. He is now going to pursue the box. I spoke to him just about thirty minutes ago. Pat said "I don't know about the box. Don't know where it is now. We never had an opportunity before when it was first released in the press that there was a box to go in but we have decided now we have grounds to go in and find it." HR Haldeman: The latest public story was that she handed it over to Edward Bennett Williams. John Dean: That is right. HR Haldeman: The Bureau ought to go into Edward Bennett Williams and start questioning him and have him tied up for a couple of days. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, I hope they do. The Bureau better get over pretty quick and get that little red box. We want it cleared up. We want to get to the bottom of it. If any body is guilty over here we want to know. HR Haldeman: It will probably be in the news! John Dean: You might be interested in some of the allocations we got. The Stans' libel action was assigned to Judge Ritchie. Pres. Nixon: (Expletive deleted) John Dean: Well now that is good and bad. Judge Ritchie is not known to be one of the (inaudible) on the bench, that is considered by me. He is fairly candid in dealing with people about the question. He has made several entrees off the bench - one to Kleindienst and one to Roemer McPhee to keep Roemer abreast of what his thinking is. He told Roemer he thought Maury ought to file a libel action. Pres. Nixon: Did he? HR Haldeman: Can he deal with this concurrently with the court case? John Dean: Yeah. The fact that the civil case drew to a halt - that the depositions were halted he is freed. HR Haldeman: It was just put off for a few days, wasn't it? John Dean: It did more than that - he had been talking to Silbert, one of the Assistant U.S. Attorneys down here. Silbert said, "We are going to have a hell of a time drawing these indictments because these civil depositions will be coming out and the Grand Jury has one out on this civil case but it is nothing typical." Someone asked the President if he wanted Mitchell's call - he said, "Yeah." John Dean: Based on that when Silbert had told Ritchie this and with a casual encounter - in fact it was just in the hall, so Ritchie stopped the civil case so Silbert can get the indictment down. Telephone call from John Mitchell: Hello President Nixon comments only from here on until end of call: Well are you still alive. I was just sitting here with John Dean and be tells me you were going to be sued or something. Good, Good. Yeah. Good. Sure. Well I tell you just don't let this keep you or your colleagues from concentrating on the big game. This thing is just one of those side issues and a month later everybody looks back and wonders what all the shooting was about. OK, John, Good night. Get a good night's sleep. And don't bug anybody without asking me? OK? Yeah. Thank you." John Dean: Three months ago I would have had trouble predicting there would be a day when this would be forgotten, but I think I can say that 54 days from now nothing is going to come crashing down to our surprise. Pres. Nixon: That what? John Dean: Nothing is going to come crashing down to our surprise. Pres. Nixon: Oh well, this is a can of worms as you know a lot of this stuff that went on. And the people who worked this way are awfully embarrassed. But the way you have handled all this seems to me has been very skillful putting your fingers in the leaks that have sprung here and sprung there. The Grand Jury is dismissed now? John Dean: That is correct. They have completed and they have let them go so there will be no continued investigation prompted by the Grand Jury's inquiry. The GAO report referred over to Justice is on a shelf right now because they have hundreds of violations - they have violations of McGovern, of Humphrey, violations of Jackson, and several hundred Congressional violations. They don't want to start prosecuting one any more than they prosecute the other. Pres. Nixon: They definitely will not prosecute us unless they prosecute the others. John Dean: Well, we are talking about technical violations referred over also. Pres. Nixon: What about watching the McGovern contributors and all that sort of thing? John Dean: We have (inaudible) eye out on that. His I understand is not in full compliance. Pres. Nixon: He asked? John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: Well, not yet. His 300 committees - have they all reported yet? John Dean: We have a couple delinquent state committees. Pres. Nixon: It said in the paper that McGovern had 300 committees reported. John Dean: No, they have not. There are a lot of things he has never done - as he has never disclosed the fact that he has some 300 committees. The Wall Street Journal piece that picked it up and carried that story brought out his committees. Pres. Nixon: Can we say anything publicly about it? John Dean: Purpose there hasn't been a tax sham - it is hard to comprehend why he set up that many committees. He doesn't have that many large contributors, but they may have to disburse through a great number of smaller committees. HR Haldeman: Unless someone is stealing $900,000. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: It could be. That could be possible. HR Haldeman: He may be getting $900,000 from somebody. He may have two or three angles. Pres. Nixon: I don't think he is getting a hell of a lot of small money. I don't believe (expletive deleted) Have you had the P.O. checked yet? HR Haldeman: That is John's area. I don't know. Pres. Nixon: Well, let's have it checked. John Dean: Well as I see it, the only problems we may have are the human problems and I will keep a close watch on that. Pres. Nixon: Union? John Dean: Human. HR Haldeman: Human frailties. John Dean: People get annoyed - some finger pointing - false accusations - any internal dissension of any nature. Pres. Nixon: You mean on this case? John Dean: On this case. There is some bitterness between the Finance Committee and the Political Committee - they feel they are taking all the heat and all the people upstairs are bad people - not being recognized. Pres. Nixon: We are all in it together. This is a war. We take a few shots and it will be over. We will give them a few shots and it will be over. Don't worry. I wouldn't want to be on the other side right now. Would you? John Dean: Along that line, one of the things I've tried to do, I have begun to keep notes on a lot of people who are emerging as less than our friends because this will be over some day and we shouldn't forget the way some of them have treated us. Pres. Nixon: I want the most comprehensive notes on all those who tried to do us in. They didn't have to do it. If we had had a very close election and they were playing the other side I would understand this. No - they were doing this quite deliberately and they are asking for it and they are going to get it. We have not used the power in this first four years as you know. We have never used it. We have not used the Bureau and we have not used the Justice Department but things are going to change now. And they are either going to do it right or go. John Dean: What an exciting prospect. Pres. Nixon: Thanks. It has to be done. We have been (adjective deleted) fools for us to come into this election campaign and not do anything with regard to the Democratic Senators who are running, et cetera. And who the hell are they after? They are after us. It is absolutely ridiculous. It is not going to be that way any more. HR Haldeman: Really, it is ironic that we have gone to extremes. You and your damn regulations. Everybody worries about not picking up a hotel bill. John Dean: I think you can be proud of the White House staff. It really has had no problems of that sort. And I love this GAO audit that is going on now. I think they have some suspicion that even a cursory investigation is going to discover something here. I don't think they can find a thing. I learned today, incidentally, and have not confirmed it, that the GAO auditor who is down here is here at the Speaker of the House's request. Pres. Nixon: That surprises me. HR Haldeman: Well, (expletive deleted) the Speaker of the House. Maybe we better put a little heat on him. Pres. Nixon: I think so too. HR Haldeman: Because he has a lot worse problems than he is going to find down here. John Dean: That's right. HR Haldeman: That is the kind of thing that, you know, we really ought to do is call the Speaker and say, "I regret to say your calling the GAO down here because of what it is going to cause us to do to you." Pres. Nixon: Why don't you see if Harlow will tell him that. HR Haldeman: Because he wouldn't do it - he would just be pleasant and call him Mr. Speaker. John Dean: I suppose the other area we are going to see some publicity on in the coming weeks because I think now that the indictments are down there will be a cresting on that - the white wash - the civil rights cases in advance. But Wright Patman's hearings - his banking and currency committee - whether we will be successful in turning that off or not I don't know. We have a plan where Rothblatt and Bittman who were counsel for the seven who were indicted today are going to go up and visit the five top members and say that if you commence hearings you are going to jeopardize the civil rights of these individuals in the worst way and they will never get a fair trial. Pres. Nixon: Why not ask that they request to be heard by the committee? John Dean: They could say, "If you do commence with these hearings we intend to come up and say what you are doing to the rights of individuals." Something to that effect. Pres. Nixon: They could even get a motion in court to get the thing dismissed. HR Haldeman: Going the other way - Pres. Nixon: Getting the criminal charges dismissed on the grounds of civil rights. John Dean: We have someone approaching the ACLU for these guys - having them exert some pressure because we don't just want Stans up there in front of the cameras with Patman asking all these questions. It is going to be the whole thing over and over again. I understand too, or I have been told, that John Connally is close to Patman and if anyone could talk turkey to Patman, Connally could. Jerry Ford is not really taking an active interest in this matter that is developing so Stans is going to see Jerry Ford and try to brief him and explain to him the problems he has. The other things we are going to do - we are looking at all the campaign reports of every member of that committee because we are convinced that none of them complied exactly with the law either. If they want to play rough - some day we better say, "Gentlemen, we want to call your attention that you have not complied with - A, B, C, and F and we are not going to hold that a secret if you start talking campaign violations here." Pres. Nixon: What about Ford? Do you think so? Connally can't because of the way he is set up. If anybody can do it, Connally could, but if Ford can get the minority members. They have some weak men and women on that committee, unfortunately. Heckler is alright. John Dean: Heckler was great. Pres. Nixon: Widnall, et cetera. Jerry should talk to Widnall. After all, if we ever win the House, Jerry will be the Speaker and he could tell him if he did not get off - he will not be Chairman ever. John Dean: That would be very helpful to get all of these people at least pulling together. If Jerry could get a little action on this. J. Haldeman: Damn it Jerry should. That is exactly the thing he was talking about, that the reason they are staying is so that they can run investigations. Pres. Nixon: The point is that they ought to raise hell about these hearings. I don't know that the counsel calls the members of the committee often. I think if they have to have this blunderbuss in the public arena then this is all it Is. John Dean: That is the last forum where we have the least problem right now. Kennedy has already said he may call hearings of the Administrative Practices sub-committee. As these committees spin out oracles we used to get busy on each one. I stopped doing that about two months ago. - We just take one thing at a time. Pres. Nixon: You really can't sit and worry about it all the time. The worst may happen but it may not. So you just try to button it up as well as you can and hope for the best, and remember basically the damn business is unfortunately trying to cut our losses. John Dean: Certainly that is right and certainly it has had no effect on you. That's the good thing. HR Haldeman: No, it has been kept away from the White House and of course completely from the President. The only tie to the White House is the Colson effort they keep trying to pull in. John Dean: And, of course, the two White House people of lower level - indicted - one consultant and one member of the Domestic Staff. That is not very much of a tie. HR Haldeman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Or Manson. (expletive deleted). If they had been killers. Isn't that true? HR Haldeman: It is certainly true. Pres. Nixon: These (characterization deleted) they have had no way. They ought to move the trial away from - John Dean: There has been extensive clipping on the part of the counsel in this case. They may never get a fair trial. They may never get a jury that will convict them. The Post, you know, that they have a real large team assigned to cover this case. Believe me, the Maury Stans story about his libel suit that had so much coverage in the Evening News they put way back on page 8 of the Post and did not even cover it in total. HR Haldeman: Yes, I will talk to Bill. John Dean: I think Dick Cook has been working on it. Pres. Nixon: Maybe Mitchell should do. J. Haldeman: Could Mitchell do it? Pres. Nixon: No. John Dean: I don't think it would be good to draw him into it. I think Maury could talk to Ford if that would do any good. I think Maury ought to brief Ford on exactly what his whole side of the story is. Maury understands the law. HR Haldeman: I will talk to Cook. Pres. Nixon: Maybe Ehrlichman should talk to him. Ehrlichman understands the law. HR Haldeman: Is that a good idea? Maybe it is. Pres. Nixon: I think maybe that is the thing. This is a big play. He has to know that it comes from the top. While I can't talk for myself he has to get at this and - the thing up. John Dean: Well, if we got that slide up there - it is a tragedy to let them have a field day up there. Pres. Nixon: What is the first move? When does he call his witnesses? John Dean: Well, he has not even gotten the vote of his committee - he hasn't even convened his committee as to whether he can call hearings. That is why he won't come Monday morning. His attorney is going to arrive on the doorstep of the chairman and to tell him what to do and he proceeds. One of the members of the committee, Jerry Brown, wrote Kleindienst a letter saying, "If the chairman holds committee hearings on this, isn't this going to jeopardize your criminal case?" Pres. Nixon: That is smart politics for Michigan and some tie into Ford. He is a very smart fellow. John Dean: Good lawyer and being helpful. He is anxious to help. Pres. Nixon: Tell Ehrlichman to get Brown and Ford in together and they can work out something. They ought to get off their - and push it. No use to let Patman have a free ride here. John Dean: Well we can keep them well briefed on moves if they will move when we provide them with the strategy. And we will have a raft of depositions going the other way soon. We will be hauling the O'Briens in and the like on our due process soon. Pres. Nixon: What did they ask - any questions? John Dean: No. I saw Rothblatt laughing at the start of the symposium. He is quite a character. He has been getting into the sex life of some of the members of the DNC. Pres. Nixon: Why? What is the justification? John Dean: Well, he is working on the entrapment theory that they were hiding something and they had secret information of theirs to hide and if they could someway conspire to bring this thing about themselves. It is a way-out theory that no one had caught. HR Haldeman: (Laughter) John Dean: He had scheduled Patricia Harris and she did not show up. She went to the beauty parlor instead so he went down to the Court House and she had been directed to show up and then the next day the Judge cut all the depositions off. But he had a host of wild questions about where O'Brien got his compensation when he was Chairman. Not that he would know anything about that, but it was just an interesting question he might want to ask the Chairman under oath. HR Haldeman: That's what Gibbons said - the same hunting license that gave them. John Dean: No - that is right. HR Haldeman: So we can play the same game they are playing. We ought to be able to do better at it. Pres. Nixon: Well. J. Haldeman: Are those depositions sealed? John Dean: That's right. J. Haldeman: They are? John Dean: But that argues that they will want them unsealed less than we will, and we may be arguing at some point to get them unsealed. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: I think what is going to happen on the civil case is that the Judge is going to dismiss the complaint that is down there right now. They will then file a new complaint which will come back to Ritchie again. That will probably happen the 20th, 21st, 22nd. Then 20 days will run before any answers have to filed and the depositions will be commenced so we are eating up an awful lot of time. Pres. Nixon: Why will the Judge dismiss the complaint? John Dean: Probably on the middle ground - both on the substantive ground that they haven't stated a good course of action - that there is improper class actions filed. O'Brien doesn't indeed represent any class. And he will just dismiss it on the merits. It is not a good complaint. He has already shaved it down to almost nothing on his original order. They will then have to redesign it in a much narrower action but the Judge himself can't suggest something to counsel. He has to do a cute argument here. If he dismisses on the merits, that they can't file another suit. They are out of the court totally. HR Haldeman: But our two suits go hang? John Dean: We have two suits - we have the abuse of process and the libel suit. HR Haldeman: We can take depositions on both of those? John Dean: Absolutely. Pres. Nixon: Hell yes. (Inaudible) J. Haldeman: (Laughter) John Dean: We can blunder down the road anyway.